Разговор с корисником:Дитинили

Поздрав, Ditinili. Добро дошли на Википедију на српском језику!
Здраво, Ditinili. Хвала на учешћу у пројекту. Надамо се да ћете уживати у сарадњи и да ће вам боравак с нама бити пријатан.
Википедија на српском језику је слободна енциклопедија која је настала 2003. године. Од тада смо успоставили различита правила у нашој заједници. Молимо вас да одвојите мало времена и прочитате следеће теме, пре него што почнете да уређујете Википедију.
	Пет стубова Википедије Шта је Википедија?		Помоћ Општи приручник за уређивање Википедије
	Упутства Брзо научите да правите измене, корак по корак		Песак За увежбавање рада на Википедији
	Основни курс Тражи персонализовану помоћ при првим покушајима		Научите како се уређује страница Водич за уређивање страница
	Ствари које не би требало да радите Сажетак најучесталијих грешака које треба избегавати		Најчешће постављана питања Питања која многи постављају
	Правила Википедије Правила и смернице које је усвојила заједница		Трг Место где можете питати друге википедијанце
Дугме за аутоматски потпис Молимо вас да се потписујете на страницама за разговор помоћу четири тилде (~~~~) или кликом на дугме које се налази изнад прозора за прављење измена — то даје ваше име, тренутно време и датум. Такође, молимо вас да се не потписујете у чланцима. За слање слика на Википедију, молимо вас да прочитате: Правила о коришћењу слика Ауторско право Налепнице за ауторско право над сликама Пре него што почнете с уређивањем чланака, молимо вас да прочитате важне напомене о писању српским језиком на Википедији. Чланци на Википедији на српском језику могу се потпуно равноправно уређивати ћирилицом и латиницом, екавицом и ијекавицом, али није дозвољено мешање писама нити наречја у истом чланку. Измене латиницом у ћириличком тексту (и обрнуто) и измене „osisanom“ латиницом, односно ASCII-јем, биће уклоњене без одлагања. Don't speak Serbian? Sr-0? — talk to us via our Village Pump in English.

Надамо се да ћете уживати са нама доприносећи Википедији и да ћете постати њен сталан сарадник. Уколико имате било каква питања, слободно се обратите мени или другим уредницима на некој од страница на Тргу или нам пошаљите поруку на IRC каналу. Још једном, добро дошли на Википедију, пројекат слободне енциклопедије. Срећан рад! --MilicevicBot (разговор) 22:40, 2. јануар 2015. (CET)

Map

I showed you source for that map. It is question of opinion if source is correct or not. You are free to remove map from articles which you edit in your home wikipedia if you think that it is not correct, but removing map from all wikipedias (from articles which you do not edit and in languages which you do not speak) is at least rude behavior. PANONIAN (разговор) 16:55, 4. јун 2015. (CEST)

Hi Panonian, it is not about politeness or being rude, it is exclusively a question of reliability. Last time, you have recognized the problem with the map, but declared that you simply do not have a better source now. [1] I fully understand that you have spent your time and effort to make this map, but please try to understand that with all sources provided until now, we really cannot say that the map is reliable. It is widely accepted that the Slavs in Slovakia settled in areas previously abandoned by Germans. Thus, how could some Germanic empire exist here in 526, except a relatively small region in the southwest? It seems that your source reproduced some older view, what sometimes happens. Of course, I can provide even more sources proving that the map is not correct, look e.g. here: "There is no evidence, for instance, that the previously dominant Germanic cultures of northern and eastern Slovakia and north-eastern Moravia, continued in existence past the year 500".[2] I hope you understand that it is not pleasantly, if the information that your country belonged to some empire, where it has never belonged is spread all across the wikipedia in several languages. More, that this empire is more or less equal to your country. I can only hardly accept it. --Ditinili (разговор) 18:12, 4. јун 2015. (CEST)

If several references are depicting Lombard state in such borders then such references are based on some scientific opinions. Even if such opinions are "older" (as you described them) presentation of these opinions to wikipedia readers is valid issue. So, you have no right simply to remove that opinion from the face of the public. You may add into articles near the map that these opinions are "older" and that some recent research contradicts to that map, but map is still valid as illustration of the history of research about borders from that time. As for your county, you fully misunderstood what is in your national interest and what it is not. It is fully pro-Slovak issue to show that some former (Indo-European) state similar in borders with current Slovakia existed there before the Kingdom of Hungary. I might rather expect opposition to this from someone from "ország" instead from someone from Slovakia. One day when you understand things better you will thank me for drawing that map. PANONIAN (разговор) 18:28, 4. јун 2015. (CEST)

Panonian, my goal is to present a correct information about my country not an incorrect one in the "national interest". Do I understand correctly, that you accept that the map is not correct according to the recent research and it has only historical value?--Ditinili (разговор) 18:46, 4. јун 2015. (CEST)

You are the first one who raised the question of how "not pleasantly" is that "your country belonged to some empire". Speaking strictly scientifically, my map at least have a historical value if not more. Yes, it is not correct according to references which you showed, but it is correct according to references which I used and it might be correct according to other references as well. The issue of spread of an archaeological culture is not same as issue of state borders, thus, Lombard state could include Slavic population in east Slovakia as well (at least in some way). Therefore, when sources about this kind of issue disagree the right solution for the problem is to have more different maps which will reflect different sources. It is solution similar to one where I had to draw 5 different maps of Pagania, due to one Croatian user which claimed that my map of Pagania based on Serbian atlas is not correct: https://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganija Now, all maps are there and each of them reflecting different source. I told you that I will draw new map of Lombard state if I find proper source for it, but that does not mean that I will support removal of old map from articles. Instead, both maps (old and new) should be in these articles. PANONIAN (разговор) 19:54, 4. јун 2015. (CEST)

it is not correct according to references which you showed, but it is correct according to references which I used

I know that you did it in good faith, but you have to take into account also that i.e the general world atlas with maps from all around the world do not have the same weight as a publication of an archaeological institute from the region where this empire should be. Right?

I propose to rely more on written works about the Longobards (in general) and early Slavic settlement of Slovakia and to carefully to check them against the map. There is a big chance that the author(s) of the general atlas simply collected older available maps and because they were not experts for the particular problem they overlooked it. From such kind of comparison, it seems that the map is really wrong and I currently do not see any reason to accept it as "one of several equivalent alternatives". --Ditinili (разговор) 06:18, 6. јун 2015. (CEST)